Your email address will not be published. by SirHandyMan Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:43 am, Post (Google, DoubleClick, YouTube, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. The reason for increasing stall speed is directly related to the engine's torque curve. Your car will vibrate even when youre not going very fast. Stator The stator is called the middleman. But the catch is that this torque multiplication doesn't last very long. Wilson pre-selectors were pretty well established technology, although not common, by the late 30s. The space ahead of the clutch formed a hydraulic cylinder containing an annular steel piston that acted as a pressure plate. (WordPress and the WordPress logos are registered trademarks of the WordPress Foundation in the United States and other countries. The first automatic transmissions employed what was called a fluid coupling to connect the crankshaft with the transmission. Since the transmission was largely dependent on the torque converter for torque multiplication, it was crucial that the lockup clutch not engage prematurely and that there be some means to immediately disengage it for acceleration. by Silver Flex SEL. When you have contaminated transmission fluid that has bits of this and that in it This is an indication that you have bigger problems inside the converter or transmission. In the diagram above, the yellow arrow again illustrates the flow of power, this time in third (top) gear. (author diagram). In order to get a realistic value, use: Your finish line MPH (from ET slip) Your finish line RPM. Change Background Color (Note: This option sets cookies on your device to manage your color settings; see the Cookie Notice for details.). If the fluid becomes contaminated, anything that uses and relies on the fluid can be damaged. These a11y cookies normally expire after about seven days, but are removed immediately if you restore the applicable settings to their default values. When the torque converter starts malfunctioning, you may feel shuddering and even slipping in overdrive. (At this point, an updated, expanded edition wouldnt go amiss, given all the subsequent development in CVTs and automatics with five or more speeds.). A spring-loaded plunger valve controlled oil flow to the lockup clutchs hydraulic cylinder. Also, as we explained in the sidebar of our article on GMs other early automatic transmissions, torque converters utilize the speed difference between the driving and driven torus members to multiply engine torque. would it work,yet throw out aod default codes. (Google, Google Analytics, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. It ran pretty good. You usually notice your car shuddering because itfeels like it's vibrating. Happens roughly 1-3 times in 30 mile drive at speeds of up to 60mph, and much more frequent at highway speeds (70+). By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Well done and thank you; this must have been an enormous amount of work. Its weird its not noticable as even a new soft engaging lock up but it acts somewhat like it has one. To serve up a little enlightenment, let's take a spin through the torque-converter world and make some sense out of all the superstition. In Drive, the direct clutch is engaged and both bands are released, causing the input sun gear, the low sun gear (orange), the planet carrier and output shaft (light green) to turn at input shaft speed. I found the cause of the P0325 and P0330 error codes. This is why a disc clutch must be disengaged or the transmission shifted to neutral whenever the vehicle stops. Performance & security by Cloudflare. This is a very slick trick and can be worth up to 2.5 times engine torque! Fluid clutches also dont allow much engine braking. It will read really high numbers until the converter is locked. If your car transmission keeps overheating, you may also notice your transmission starts to act funny, or it may even go into fail date and stay in one gear and not shift at all. The stator redirects fluid from the turbine to the impeller, radically increasing the force of the fluid entering the impeller and multiplying the torque input from the engine. This is not a huge factor in the overall lower-e.t. During a shudder the desired will stay close to 0rpm but the act pid will go up and down in rpm. Those gear ratios were in addition to the torque multiplication provided by the torque converter. I was running the KEM 250 and 310 tunes. I think you should check the fluid level first and foremost. In first, the low band and one-way clutches held both sun gears, causing the ring gears to drive the planet carrier and output shaft at 43.3% of turbine speed (1 / 2.31). It's not more specific because stall speed is highly dependent upon engine torque. Tuning. When that connection is fully engaged, the fluid clutchs torus members are effectively locked together they must turn together at engine speed and transmit no torque. This created the demand for a lockup converter employing an internal clutch inside the converter to directly connect the turbine with the input shaft of the transmission just like a manual-transmission clutch. In second, the low band was released and the multi-disc clutch engaged, causing both ring gears to rotate at turbine speed. How exactly are you measuring how much the tc is slipping? If the payment button is visible, it may set the third-party cookies PYPF (via paypalobjects.com, which is owned by PayPal, Inc.), which appears to check whether or not you are a logged-in PayPal user, possibly to facilitate the PayPal user login process, and/or 01A1 (via abmr.net, which is owned by Akamai Technologies), which stores certain technical information about your device and browser (or other user agent), possibly to facilitate the login and shopping cart functions. But this shuttering is not caused by a disease. *. Your ring and pinion (gear size) Your circumference or roll out of the rear tires. but my truck has 25k on it and 10k tuned.. so im thinking mines not on the way out and its got 20rpm slip. Remember, a torque converter is a coupler between the engine and transmission. I believe that the drive train motion could be perceived as a "shudder" especially under high torque/high load conditions. Cookies whose names begin with "_ceg" are associated with the Crazy Egg web analytics service (which is subject to the Crazy Egg Privacy Policy and Cookie Policy). I agree that a manual transmission option would be great. Turbine speed tends to fall behind impeller speed any time load increases (for example, when going up a steep grade) and an increase in engine speed doesnt immediately produce a corresponding increase in turbine speed. If you use the buttons to make a payment or donation, the PayPal services will set additional cookies (not listed here) to manage your PayPal login and transaction data (and potentially also for various other purposes, e.g., user analytics and/or advertising). I checked for codes and had none that explained why it happened. This is not an official website of any automaker or automotive brand! One way to minimize coupling slip is to supplement the fluid clutch with a plate clutch that engages when the vehicle reaches cruising speed. The effective dates of the current versions are: Paid advertisements and/or sponsored links on Ate Up With Motor will be identified with words such as "Sponsor," "Sponsors," "Sponsored Link(s)," "Sponsored Content," "Ad," "Advertisement," "Advertisement(s)," or "Paid Promotion" (and/or by images or icons containing such words). The replacement was a cheaper and somewhat simpler Borg-Warner unit which Studebaker-Packard called Flightomatic that deleted the DGs lockup clutch. Advertising - Since the 1940s, automakers have come up with a variety of strategies for reducing or eliminating that slip, including series parallel split torque transmissions and different types of converter lockup clutches. In my limited experience, a failing converter in this transmission will start to throw off a lot of black carbon and cause the fluid to rapidly darken. How ever this did happen right after I did the six 0 to 60 mph relearn runs. For example, in park, it will say Desired Slip 1200, Actual: 730 (guess the engine rpm) As speed increases, the Desired Slip drops (don't remember exact numbers) as well as the actual. Its free and only takes a minute, Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. Welcome to the dark world of torque converters. and our Think of a lock TC as the clutches in your tranny. My SunCoast converter has a little slip. The clutch plate itself, which was faced on both sides with cork, was splined at its hub to the transmission input shaft. With the torque slip PID on the DashDAQ. Contact Us - A 5 percent slippage factor means that if the impeller is spinning 3,000 rpm, the turbine is only spinning 2,850, or 5 percent slower. The second thing to look for is a lot of slippage between Desired and Actual readings for the TCC in Forscan. With a plate clutch, that effect is often quite pronounced, especially in a reduction gear, because of the mechanical connection between the engine flywheel and the transmission input shaft; neither can overrun the other. Once the clutch plate is fully engaged against the pressure plate, both must turn together at the same speed. Your IP: The DG series transmissions were notionally three-speed automatics (although early iterations were designed to start in second gear) with a torque converter lockup clutch. This is why lifting off the throttle in a car with a fluid coupling or torque converter can feel almost like shifting into neutral. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Your Transmission Gear Ratio at Finish Line. However, the cookie may remain on your device for as long as the settings of your browser (or other user agent) permit. Google, AdSense, Google AdSense, Google Analytics, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. Once the vehicle is moving at a constant speed, the speed difference between the impeller and turbine diminishes, eventually reaching a minimum point known as coupling stage. Third, make sure that your engine is running right because a transmission chuggle can be caused by many things. It may not display this or other websites correctly. It stayed there(18.24) from 60mph to 90 when I let off of it. The cookies normally expire in about 10 days, and are not set at all if you do not access any password-protected content. abs, do you have any recommendations on how to troubleshoot a failing torque converter using ForScan? register to join our community They normally expire after about one year. (author diagram). For additional technical information about the cookies used by the analytics service, see their "Google Analytics Cookie Usage on Websites" page; for your reference when reviewing that page, we did not use Google Analytics 4. (These cookies are not usually set for administrative users, since comments they submit while logged in are associated with their user ID number and user profile information rather than a manually entered name and email address.). Hydraulic slippage also offers some advantages during acceleration: As with a plate clutch, a certain amount of slip makes for a much smoother takeoff. Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:33 am, Post If the solenoid is not regulating the fluid flow properly, it could cause variability in the torque converter clutch performance as well. These cookies manage your cookie and privacy preferences. Such cookies and/or stored data items may be set by various domains (such as, though not necessarily limited to, youtube.com; youtube-nocookie.com; googlevideo.com; ytimg.com; google.com; accounts.google.com; www.googleadservices.com; and/or doubleclick.net, which is part of the DoubleClick advertising service, also owned by Google LLC). That could be within the margin of error for the sensor. Torque converter slip question I was monitoring some Torque converter params for my 4R55E with my in dash scantool. there were around 6 defaults that popped up. As the new owner of a 92 Alante with the viscous clutch I wondered what the difference was. Estimate Converter Slip. Required fields are marked *. Most street cars cannot keep the rear tires from spinning if you add too much throttle, and this tends to limit the stall speed. 7.3L Power Stroke - Aftermarket & Performance. The slipping occurs while you're driving or changing gears, and it usually comes with some odd noises too. Transmission Range) start a datalog or have an assistant drive and watch Torque Converter Slip Actual (TCA) and Torque Converter Slip Desired (TCD). Cloudflare Ray ID: 7c0ed4b2fd769016 What to Do to Fix Your Contaminated Transmission Fluid. 51.91.16.67 This means that at a 2:1 torque multiplication ratio, an engine that is making 300 lb-ft of torque at a stall speed of 2,500 rpm will actually apply 600 lb-ft of torque to the input shaft of the transmission as the car leaves the starting line. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. what is the protocol using AE to diagnosis torque slip. You can't be sure the slipping or shuddering has anything to do with your torque converter until you check your fluid levels. Do you want them slipping when driving? The _ga and _gid cookies, which were only placed if you clicked "Accept/Enable" in the notification banner, enabled the Google Analytics service to track your activity on the site. When starting, the fluid clutchs driving torus (the impeller) may reach a speed of 2,000 rpm or more before the driven torus (the turbine) begins to move at all, a point known as stall. Okay, so it sounds like you were able to identify a potential root cause. I changed to the Spartan V2 a few weeks ago. I did the trans relearn today with the Spartan 275 tune. Basically, the fluid exits the center of the turbine and is redirected by the stator back into the impeller. The one for torque slip desired is 1020 rpm. All other trademarks and/or service marks are the property of their respective owners. It's when you have a damaged torque converter seal that fluid leaks out and causes the overheating and damage. Some electrical tape and some plastic wire loom may solve your issue entirely. Packard achieved that goal by treating the engagement of the lockup clutch like an automatic gear change. We thought 10 was bad 2 years ago. If your going over ten your gonna need a new torque converter fairly soon..depends how you drive.. my converter started off slipping at about 13 on the 275 and ended up wearing out pretty quick and it began slipping like 45-50 on the gauge. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -. T43 Torque Converter Desired Slip. Remember, a torque converter is a coupler between the engine and transmission. Tire slip is likely causing your speed difference. mroberthowell 4 yr. ago Thank you so much! The impellers spun by the engine's crankshaft. AAMCO Centers are independently owned and operated. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Any reading below 10 RPM slip is really errors in reading the sensors, not real slip. Locking the converter with a scan tool bypasses the tune and verifies everything mechanical is in order. Many aftermarket companies offer performance lockup torque converters that can provide a higher stall speed without sacrificing the advantages of the lockup converter for highway use. The end result is the torque converterisn't able to transferthat power completely and efficiently from the engine to the transmission. (Those pages do not currently discuss the storage of data in your browser (or other user agent) using technologies other than cookies, e.g., in web storage.) Many of the other listed cookies are associated with the Google Analytics service, the Google AdSense advertising service, and/or other Google advertising and measurement products, which are subject to the Google Privacy Policy; see their "How Google uses information from sites or apps that use our services" page, the "Information for Visitors of Sites and Apps Using Google Analytics" section of the Google Analytics "Safeguarding your data" help page, the "Technologies" section of their Google Privacy & Terms site, and the "Our advertising and measurement cookies" section of the Google Business Data Responsibility site (which includes a detailed list of cookies associated with Google advertising and measurement products) for more information. Achieving a true 1:1 speed relationship between the turbine and the impeller is not possible with a non-lockup torque converter since it is still a fluid coupling. This creates the greatest speed difference between the turbine and the impeller and therefore the maximum torque multiplication. Multiple different problems, some transmission related, some engine related, all resulting in driveability issues. check out the. 4. Torque converters can be serviced or replaced as a single unit. The logic of these schematics, which are not to scale and which have been greatly simplified for clarity, is that each color represents a set of components that are integral or otherwise connected so that they always rotate together; clutches, brake bands, planet pinions, and flywheels are shown in black or gray. However, that did not cure the shuddering problem. A high-stall converter like a 4,000-rpm unit is not only lazy from a part-throttle-efficiency standpoint, but it also generates much more heat. Filling the cylinder with pressurized oil would lock the pressure plate to the clutch plate itself, forcing the clutch and input shaft to rotate with the torus cover at engine speed. For more information, please see our You also need to move forward with viable options that will help you get your torque converter fixed. When I replaced my transmission and converter, I replaced two mounts and the two dog bones under the engine. The drive fan moves air across the blades of the driven fan (which is turned off). works great no real problems. If you shop at Amazon.com (for anything), use this link to support FordFlex.net! if you dont hammer on it everyday it will last you a long time.. my stock converter had 350 rpms of slip on one of the strange quirks of these transmissions is if they are a quart or so low it will feel like the torque converter does not disengage at stop. There is going to be some slip. With the advent of overdrive automatic transmissions like the TH200-4R, the TH700-R4/4L60E, the massive 4L80E, the Ford AOD, and all the rest, the new-car companies were striving for improved fuel economy using overdrive. its the mechanically controlled aod. This sounds really great, and it is. I re-used the "new" valve body and decided to try out my original solenoid pack to avoid having to reprogram the PCM with the new calibration for the solenoid pack that came with the recycled transmission. This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. Unlike a reduction gear, this speed reduction doesnt multiply engine torque. Primary symptom includes a "rumble strip" like sound randomly while driving at speeds of about 40+. by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:27 pm, Post This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. Cookies whose names begin with "optimizely" are associated with the Optimizely digital experience platform (which is subject to the Optimizely Privacy Policy; the "Privacy" section of the Optimizely Trust Center provides additional information about Optimizely privacy practices, including a link to the Data Processing Agreement that applies to personal data the Optimizely services process on customers' behalf that may be subject to certain regional privacy and/or data protection laws, while their "Cookies and localStorage in the Optimizely snippet" help page provides additional technical information about the cookies and/or similar technologies used by that platform). Adding stall speed to the torque converter increases the power available to accelerate the car more quickly. If the engine is not running smoothly and/or delivering consistent power, it can cause fluctuation in the "Desired" versus "Actual" torque converter clutch slippage along with a surging feeling. The speed difference between impeller and turbine is simply lost to heat within the operating fluid. Keep reading to find out these common torque converter problems and how to fix them. Think of it as two fans facing eachother inside an enclosure. I purchased my car 3 weeks ago from a new car dealership.. A tracking pixel, sometimes known as a web beacon, is a tiny image file that loads from a remote server; it's a type of embedded content (as is the button itself, which loads from the same domain). if you dont hammer on it everyday it will last you a long time.. my stock converter had 350 rpms of slip on the 310 tune and the truck still had all kinds of power even locked. The DG series transmissions obtained their indirect ratios with a compound planetary gearset. Vehicle weight is another major factor that should be considered when selecting a converter. The multiplication factor is based on the speed difference between the turbine and impeller. Input output shaft readings are almost exactly the same when driving. The torque converter is so essential to the global car market theres a global torque converter market. I was monitoring some Torque converter params for my 4R55E with my in dash scantool. Sure, there's all kind of talk about stall speed, slippage, and lockup features, but some gearheads secretly believe there's as much voodoo to a torque converter as there is science. Unlike a clutch where a friction plate makes physical contact with another plate and ideally the two rotate at exactly the same speed when fully engaged. ), These first-party cookies are used to manage user logins and certain other administrative functions of the WordPress content management system, e.g., post editing.

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